Estradiol-17B

[lost_soul]

@nonsense, in your opinion is this something you would have to take forever in order to see sustained improvements? Or if taken at correct doses for a certain amount of time would the alleviation of PSSD be permanent.

And what you're saying about the three sexual aspects, does that mean I should take just estrogen for a while then estrogen and dht or what?

If someone has access to the full study could you please upload it somewhere and PM me a link, or if not post the most relevant parts here

I am going to just do estrogen now. The last 2 days I've been taking 4mg estradiol hemihydrate orally, 2mg in the morning and 2mg at night. From tomorrow I will be trying just 2mg in the morning taken sublingually.

EDIT: I was planning on using ketamine heavily over the next week and also some amphetamine. Would this have any affect on my estradiol trial (ketamine is an SRI)?

[Ghost]

It could. I'd stick to one thing at a time. Just give the Estrogen 3-4 full weeks and then you can try other stuff if it's still not working.

Study will be sent to you shortly.

[Ghost]

I also cannot advocate for Scihub, but I will say that it does exist...

It's a plugin for google chrome that automatically opens up full PDFs when you are in google scholar.

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/deta ... kbkl?hl=en

It's not legal, per say, but it does exist. It is an option to get any paper ever for free.

[lost_soul]

Hi guys, I've read through the study and there is a ton of useful info in there, if you want to read it pm me and I will link to it. Note that Clomipramine is not an SSRI, it is a TCA, however it does seem very similar in many ways including mechanisms of action.

So the pssd rats (named CMI rats in the study) were given clomipramine before sexual maturity between 8 and 21 days of age. They were then given control tests of sexual motivation (libido) and sexual behaviour (physical stuff, erections etc). Aged 120 days they were given orchiectomies. 21 days of hormonal treatment then began at age 140 days. The tests were reapeated and depending on the hormones given, they showed different improvements in sexual function.

The optimal doses for rats seemed to be 10ug estradiol-17b and 1mg of DHT. These rats, basically their physical sexual function was restored fully. Sexual motivation is less clear but there were marked improvements. The study does not seem to say whether these changes were thought to be permanent upon discontinuation of treatment (but I assume not since the rats were castrated).

So yeah. It's definitely something worth pursuing. The orchiectomies really throw a spanner in the works though, I wish they hadn't done that. Because of course since all of us still have sex hormones we can't just extrapolate a rough dose of estradiol and dht from the rats' bodyweight, also this is just wild speculation but I would imagine having organic sex hormones would make it harder to alter homeostasis.

However, in the study they say that 5ug estradiol-17b was used to recreate normal male rat levels (10ug was used for optimal sexual restoration). So perhaps we can figure out from this what the best estradiol-17b level for male humans would be. But there is so many factors, again mostly because we are not physically castrated like these rats.

Another thing is, even if this has permanent benefits for PSSD, these rats were treated for 21 days and they only live 1 or 2 years. I don't know whether humans would need the same length of time or longer, I'm not a scientist, but hopefully someone does.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts on what I have read. Again, if you want to read the study, pm me, ESPECIALLY if you have a lot of medicinal knowledge.

I am worried about whether I have permanently effected myself by taking these hormones at suboptimal levels. Also, I am asking anyone with expertise and some free time to read the study, do the research and approximate the optimal dose for this line of the treatment for a non-castrated human male with high testosterone.

EDIT: It's occured to me that it's likely the only reason they gave the rats dht was because they had been castrated and therefore could not produce male sex hormones naturally. So DHT is probably unnecessary in human treatment. Basically, if someone who is good with this stuff can figure out a): what kind of hormone levels these rats would have relative to normal male rats that had not been castrated or given hormones, b) what that means for estradiol-17b doses in male human PSSD sufferers, c) what dose I indivdually should take (I will get full bloods results done ASAP if necessary) and d) how long I should do this for, we will get as close as possible to an optimum human trial.

[Kinncrimson]

Is it 10 microgram/kg? then you would have to devide it by 6.3 for human (human equivalent dose)

[lost_soul]

Is it 10 microgram/kg? then you would have to devide it by 6.3 for human (human equivalent dose)

No, it's simply 10ug per rats. They are adult male wistar rats which have an average weight of 389 grams. The same dose to weight ratio for me would be 1.8MG. Are you saying I should divide that by 6.3? That would be a dose of 285ug. Where did you get the 6.3 figure from?

And could I have hurt my chances of recovery by taking so much more than that?

The bioavailability of injected estradiol (in humans) is 4x higher than with sublingual administration, which would take the theoretical 285ug dose to 1.142mg. However, another thing which I've somehow not thought of is that these were injections, so presumably they were only given this amount once a week or something (it doesn't seem to say how often they were injected). So I could have been taking 6 or 7 times as much as I should have hope no permanent problems result from that

I will amend my doage to approximately 500ug per day for the time being.

[Kinncrimson]

HEDFDAk_MValues.png

I think the factor 6.2 would only be applicable when its µg/kg.
But I'm not sure.

I'm wondering where the med students are, they could help you out better than me.

How much estrogen are you taking at the moment?

Don't be nervous about this, for example I was taking testosterone (which converts to estrogen) also in range of 6 to 7 times higher than the normal dose and I also haven't experienced long term health problems.

[lost_soul]

HEDFDAk_MValues.png

I think the factor 6.2 would only be applicable when its µg/kg.
But I'm not sure.

I'm wondering where the med students are, they could help you out better than me.

How much estrogen are you taking at the moment?

Don't be nervous about this, for example I was taking testosterone (which converts to estrogen) also in range of 6 to 7 times higher than the normal dose and I also haven't experienced long term health problems.

I'm only worried about potential PSSD complications, not other health effects. I will take a small dose tomorrow and wait for one of the med students to shed some light on the situation.

[Kinncrimson]

Get this thought out of your mind, this fear could harm the results (this was the case for me a couple of times, when I tried something new). Why should estrogen, a natural hormone that reversed PSSD symptoms in rats, give you a permanent deterioration in your PSSD symptoms?
That's an irrational thought.

[lost_soul]

Hi guys, I found this article https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904480/ - Nicotine Blocks Brain Estrogen Synthase (Aromatase): In Vivo Positron Emission Tomography Studies in Female Baboons
Conclusions
Nicotine interacts in vivo with primate brain aromatase in regions involved in mood, aggression, and sexual behavior.
In a way, this is very encouraging, because I am a very heavy smoker and I still noticed definite improvements with the estradiol. But I am also really scared that using the estrogen while smoking will mean I won't be able to get the full changes even if I stop. Nonetheless, I will be trying to stop cold turkey after tonight, I probably won't be able to but I will smoke as little as possible.