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Re: Frog intro
Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:28 pm
by naiverat
mrstaircase wrote:Mesolimbo wrote:Frog wrote:@Mesolimbo -I’ve ordered the panax ginseng and the omega 3. I read on your other post that medications can make symptoms worse and move you to other subtypes, what are the chances of that happening with these?
They won't make you worse. Medications that can make you worse are usually exogenous testosterone or hCG, or other serotonergics and antidepressants. 5-alpha reductase inhibitors, etc.
How would exogenous testosterone or hcg make you worse?
Exogenous test will shutdown your own test production if used for too long (hence why body buildings do post-cycle therapy to kickstart their T again).
Not sure about hCG. Sometimes it's used post-cycle, from what I've read. Probably will shutdown gonodatropic releasing hormone (so?) production if used constantly for a while
Re: Frog intro
Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:45 am
by Meso
Thanks for your support, Frog. I'll try to help to the best of my knowledge.
Reference ranges vary from lab to lab, so I will use the general reference ranges in my current analysis:
Serum 17-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP): 1.3 nmol/L
--> within normal range (adult male): 0.81 to 6.02 nmol/L
Serum androstenedione: 2.1 nmol/L
--> within normal range (adult male): 1.4 to 5.2 nmol/L
Serum Testosterone (total): 15.5 nmol/L
--> within normal range but on the lower end (male, 18 years old): 10.4 to 41.6 nmol/L
Serum TSH level: 1.63 mIU/L
--> within normal range: 0.4 to 4.0 mIU/L
Serum free T4 level: 17.8 pmol/L
--> within normal range: 10 to 20 pmol/L
Serum Prolactin: 275 mIU/L
--> within normal range (adult male): >450 mIU/L
Serum LH level: 2.3 IU/L
--> within normal range (adult male): 1.24 to 7.8 IU/L
Serum FSH level: 2.3 IU/L
--> within normal range (adult male): 1.5 to 12.4 IU/L
Your values are fine, aside from testosterone being on the lower end of the range for your age. Without free testosterone, estradiol and SHBG, it's difficult to come to a conclusion regarding your sex hormones profile. Looking forward to discussing this with you.
Re: Frog intro
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:32 am
by Frog
Been trialing Panax Ginseng and Lithium Orotate (15mg) for just under 2 weeks following advice from Meso. I’ve noticed that libido has been a little better today and orgasm build up was also a bit better. EQ is ok but still have soft glands and numbness/sensitivity fluctuates. Hopefully the improvements keep coming!
Also noticed that mood has been better since starting the lithium and anxiety hasn’t been as bad
Re: Frog intro
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:08 pm
by fellow1
I don't understand Meso reasoning and why is he telling people to take ginseng. There are many studies showing Panax ginseng downregulate AR signaling and inhibit 5ar. I remember showing this to Meso.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4350143/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2153862 ... 205%CE%B1R.
Re: Frog intro
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:47 pm
by Frog
This is what he told me regarding 5ar study:
Regarding the study that you shared:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21538628/
The rhizome is part of ginseng that's not in a root extract. For ginseng, there's the main root, the fibrous root, and the rhizome as different parts of the plant.
The rhizome is rich in "Ginsenoside Ro" which is the main reason for its efficacy against 5-alpha reductase. I've looked for other studies on panax ginseng and it seems that out of the main ginsenosides contained in ginseng, only 2 are 5-alpha reductase inhibitor, with an extract specifically from the rhizome being effective against alopecia.
Ginseng root extact isn't usually used as a standalone treatment neither for benign prostatic hyperplasia nor androgenic alopecia, so I think a normal extract of the root doesn't contain enough Ro to be of concern.
Re: Frog intro
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:15 pm
by fellow1
Frog wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:47 pm
This is what he told me regarding 5ar study:
Regarding the study that you shared:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21538628/
The rhizome is part of ginseng that's not in a root extract. For ginseng, there's the main root, the fibrous root, and the rhizome as different parts of the plant.
The rhizome is rich in "Ginsenoside Ro" which is the main reason for its efficacy against 5-alpha reductase. I've looked for other studies on panax ginseng and it seems that out of the main ginsenosides contained in ginseng, only 2 are 5-alpha reductase inhibitor, with an extract specifically from the rhizome being effective against alopecia.
Ginseng root extact isn't usually used as a standalone treatment neither for benign prostatic hyperplasia nor androgenic alopecia, so I think a normal extract of the root doesn't contain enough Ro to be of concern.
Doesn't sound convincing considering that RB1 ginsensides supress AR Mrna. And RB1 is plenty in root extract. Too many studies showing hair growth with Ginseng extract and it's should be suspicious. But if you getting better thats great.
DHT upregulated the expression level of androgen receptor in comparison with the negative control (P<.001), and pretreatment with RGE(red ginseng extract), ginsenoside-Rb1, or ginsenoside-Rg3 abrogated the DHT-induced upregulation of the mRNA expression of androgen receptor
Re: Frog intro
Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:53 am
by fellow1
Frog wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:47 pm
Ginseng root extact isn't usually used as a standalone treatment neither for benign prostatic hyperplasia nor androgenic alopecia, so I think a normal extract of the root doesn't contain enough Ro to be of concern.
I think Meso need to do his research thoroughly, because it's quite irresponsible approach.
We here tested the effect of a water extract of Korean red ginseng (WKRG) on testosterone-induced prostate hyperplasia. WKRG (daily intraperitoneal injection) prevented prostate overgrowth and epithelial thickening induced by testosterone in rats, and suppressed a rat prostate kallikrein-S3. In human prostate cells, WKRG inhibited testosterone-induced cell proliferation, arrested cell cycle by inducing p21 and p27, and induced apoptosis. Testosterone-induced expression of human kallikrein-3 mRNA and activation of androgen receptor (AR) were effectively inhibited by WKRG.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 011-0609-8
Re: Frog intro
Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:16 am
by Benji19912
Frog wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:32 am
Been trialing Panax Ginseng and Lithium Orotate (15mg) for just under 2 weeks following advice from Meso. I’ve noticed that libido has been a little better today and orgasm build up was also a bit better. EQ is ok but still have soft glands and numbness/sensitivity fluctuates. Hopefully the improvements keep coming!
Also noticed that mood has been better since starting the lithium and anxiety hasn’t been as bad
When you say mood do you mean anhedonia improved or just mood
Re: Frog intro
Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:50 am
by Frog
Benji19912 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:16 am
Frog wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:32 am
Been trialing Panax Ginseng and Lithium Orotate (15mg) for just under 2 weeks following advice from Meso. I’ve noticed that libido has been a little better today and orgasm build up was also a bit better. EQ is ok but still have soft glands and numbness/sensitivity fluctuates. Hopefully the improvements keep coming!
Also noticed that mood has been better since starting the lithium and anxiety hasn’t been as bad
When you say mood do you mean anhedonia improved or just mood
General mood
Re: Frog intro
Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:51 am
by Frog
Almost 3 weeks on the regimen, this week I’ve noticed increased libido and I’ve also had sexual dreams for the first time in ages